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Do you think we would be better off with my proposed changes?
yes
52%
 52%  [ 12 ]
no
47%
 47%  [ 11 ]
Total Votes : 23

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searsmatrix


Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 477
Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 9:03 am    Post subject:  
Death tax is important by the way. It prevents very wealthy people from simply giving all there money to there kids without putting any back into the economy. If we did not have the death tax the top one percent of this country would control even more of the money supply. Also may I remind you that since you are probably not a wealthy person (if so I am sorry but face it you work at sears) then the death tax has minimal effect on you. Last time I had checked with the laws (in my state could be different in others) estates under 500k do not face the wrath of the death tax. Now if you live in a state like I do bodyguard (I live in California) people on the low end are not hurt so much. If you live in a different state would you mind stating how the death tax affects people of higher and lower incomes?
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Bodyguard


Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 1337
Location: The Collective
Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 9:04 am    Post subject:  
searsmatrix wrote:
You know bodyguard sears like anything else is a team effort. You (based on your recent posts on this thread) do not seem to be a team player. Remember there am no I in team. You asked why people should get the same pay and benefits as you. Well pay is one thing but as far as benefits go doesn’t everyone deserve the same benefits as you do? Do you think you are the only one with kids with special needs? Everyone who works in a company should all receive the same benefits whether it’s medical or otherwise. Pay on the other hand is (in my opinion) decided more through time and should be rewarded and increased by being a productive member to a company. On the other hand people (all people) who work at a company (especially people who are fta) deserve the right to receive a "living wage" not minimum wage but a "minimum wage" where it gives them a chance to start somewhere in life. You said you have kids who have special needs. Do they involve added medical costs? If so, a union could help by either lowering (or more likely) freezing current medical costs. By that fact alone wouldn't a union be worth fighting for if the only thing it would get you would be a leveling out of medical costs. You then might ask, where would they get the money? Well they just spent a billion dollars recently buying back stock, and will spend another billion in the future buying more back. That is two billion right there that could have gone into a fund that helped cover peoples medical costs more (especially people with kids who have special needs like yours might have. Also know one is entitled to anything. You have to make yourself entitled to it. Remember at one point in time in our nations history people with special needs were not entitled to anything. Someone woke up one day and decided that was wrong. So case in point, know one is entitled to anything only you decide who is entitled to what.



You really know from nothing about anything SM...........if a union puts Sears out of business then there will be NO benifits for anybody. That was the point of the post Slek and I were arguing about. Do not lecture me on anything regarding special needs. Get married, have some kids, acutally support more than just yourself, then try and tell me how things are. Talk about arrogence! You are leaving Sears right? What do you care? Go ahead and run for governor like you said you wanted too.....just be sure to tell me someday who you really are so I can vote against you.
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sleK
Administrator

Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 1010
Location: over yonder
Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 9:06 am    Post subject:  
BG you really need to read my original post in this thread again - you are totally over-reacting.
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Bodyguard


Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 1337
Location: The Collective
Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 9:07 am    Post subject:  
searsmatrix wrote:
Death tax is important by the way. It prevents very wealthy people from simply giving all there money to there kids without putting any back into the economy. If we did not have the death tax the top one percent of this country would control even more of the money supply. Also may I remind you that since you are probably not a wealthy person (if so I am sorry but face it you work at sears) then the death tax has minimal effect on you. Last time I had checked with the laws (in my state could be different in others) estates under 500k do not face the wrath of the death tax. Now if you live in a state like I do bodyguard (I live in California) people on the low end are not hurt so much. If you live in a different state would you mind stating how the death tax affects people of higher and lower incomes?


So it is ok for the goverment to take the things they are not entitled too? The government did not earn a penny of it...do not deserve it....you want to give your money???Go ahead......give your share to the democratic party........
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sleK
Administrator

Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 1010
Location: over yonder
Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 9:07 am    Post subject:  
On topic please.
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Bodyguard


Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 1337
Location: The Collective
Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 9:11 am    Post subject:  
sleK wrote:
BG you really need to read my original post in this thread again - you are totally over-reacting.


Slek, I am not over reacting. You just hit a nerve that I could not cover up my reaction too. To be accused of being selfish for thinking about my family first before anyone elses made me boil. Then when I see someone like SM chime in about something he has no experience with makes me even more angry. Theory is a fine thing to think about, but when one actually has to deal with real life, ones opinions change in a hurry.
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searsmatrix


Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 477
Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 9:14 am    Post subject:  
Sorry and will do. Body guard did not seem to take economics in college and saw the effects of how money helps the economy when it is put back into circulation (as the death tax does to do so for the wealthy people of this country). Also i am no more arrogant in stating my ideas then you have. Am i married. No? Do i have kids? No. Do i know what it is like to have kids with special needs? No. Do i know what it is like to be a tax paying citizen knowing that some of my money goes to programs to help people with special needs even though i have no kids of my own that have special needs? Yes i do. If you say the government has no business taking money away that it did not earn, what business does it having taking money (that i pay taxes with) to give to kids with special need programs? Is it fair for me to support those people? I don't believe so.
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sleK
Administrator

Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 1010
Location: over yonder
Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 9:17 am    Post subject:  
Quote:
To be accused of being selfish for thinking about my family first before anyone elses made me boil.


Exactly: over-reacting.

Instead, do you think you could dispute the actual points I made that you disagree with?

Quote:
Then when I see someone like SM chime in about something he has no experience with makes me even more angry.


Once again, I suggest you get a handle on your anger. Precious few of us can tolerate people who can dish it out but can't take it.

Quote:
Theory is a fine thing to think about


It's a fine thing to discuss rationally too.
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Bodyguard


Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 1337
Location: The Collective
Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 9:19 am    Post subject:  
Slek, if collective action harms and eventually causes the collapse of a company, then it is in the end harmfull. I see that we will never agree on this because we dont even begin to share common ground on any of it. So thank you for a good debate! I yield the floor to less "emotional" posters! Wow it is late here!

SM......oh just never mind, I dont want to get kicked off of here.
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Bodyguard


Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 1337
Location: The Collective
Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 9:24 am    Post subject:  
One more thing Slek, you answered virtually none of the questions I asked you! If one is to discuss things without anger, then you should state the position you come from. You know my postition very well now...what is yours?
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sleK
Administrator

Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 1010
Location: over yonder
Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 9:25 am    Post subject:  
Quote:
if collective action harms and eventually causes the collapse of a company, then it is in the end harmfull.


No one said anything like this.
Once again, re-read my post.
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Bodyguard


Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 1337
Location: The Collective
Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 9:30 am    Post subject:  
sleK wrote:
Quote:
if collective action harms and eventually causes the collapse of a company, then it is in the end harmfull.


No one said anything like this.
Once again, re-read my post.


We were talking about theory of collective action, wich I took the logical action of unionization. Wich I feel would destroy Sears. I frankly dont care about any other company. Sorry for being so selfish again! Very Happy
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searsmatrix


Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 477
Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 9:33 am    Post subject:  
I guess im not important enough to debate with. I dont feel the love:) whoot whoot.
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Bodyguard


Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 1337
Location: The Collective
Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 9:36 am    Post subject:  
Now you finally got it!
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sleK
Administrator

Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 1010
Location: over yonder
Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 9:37 am    Post subject:  
I stated my position quite clearly in my first post in this thread.

Can we get back on topic now BG?
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Bodyguard


Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 1337
Location: The Collective
Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 9:39 am    Post subject:  
I have to work tomarrow...can we take this up at another time???
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Bodyguard


Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 1337
Location: The Collective
Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 9:48 am    Post subject:  
sleK wrote:
I stated my position quite clearly in my first post in this thread.

Can we get back on topic now BG?


I did not see anywhere where you posted how many kids you had etc. that is what I meant. If you are in the same situation as I then maybye you could understand where I just might be angry at someone who is not my situation calling me selfish? If not, you are correct...what a waste of time this was.
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FOOTSOLDIER


Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Posts: 1037
Location: Formerly 3333
Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 12:51 pm    Post subject:  
[quote]Searsmatrix has way too many good points about the union as well as the ones who contradict him, my point is that the worse thing that could happen is that sears closes the doors and so no one works there anymore.

I surely think it's better than to be working with people who think they own the place therefore they tend to harass the lower ranking people in horrible ways.

That way if it wasn't for me, it wasn't for you too... _____________________________________________________

Just so there is no confusion, I took the liberty to copy SoCali's entire post that started this ruckus. I did correct spelling and grammar too.

His selfishness shows when he makes statements alluding to the fact that it would be better if Sears ceased to exist and everyone would lose their job than to work with supervisors he can't get along with.

We have some 270,000 associates who call Sears their employer. Many of us have most of our working lives invested in this company. Many of us love this company like family. Many of us have our retirement savings, hopes and dreams tied to the success of Sears. Many of us have children who depend on us and the success of Sears.

You'll have to excuse those of us who get a little upset by someone willing to see the company go down the drain because he doesn't happen to like his Manager(s). Did you ever give consideration to the possibility that maybe it is SOCALI who is so difficult to get along with and not the Management?

I am not being selfish and I have no apology to offer.

"Footie"
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Unhappy1314


Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 613
Location: New Frickin' Jersey
Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 3:44 pm    Post subject:  
searsmatrix wrote:
You know bodyguard sears like anything else is a team effort. You (based on your recent posts on this thread) do not seem to be a team player. Remember there am no I in team. You asked why people should get the same pay and benefits as you. Well pay is one thing but as far as benefits go doesn’t everyone deserve the same benefits as you do? Do you think you are the only one with kids with special needs? Everyone who works in a company should all receive the same benefits whether it’s medical or otherwise. Pay on the other hand is (in my opinion) decided more through time and should be rewarded and increased by being a productive member to a company. On the other hand people (all people) who work at a company (especially people who are fta) deserve the right to receive a "living wage" not minimum wage but a "minimum wage" where it gives them a chance to start somewhere in life. You said you have kids who have special needs. Do they involve added medical costs? If so, a union could help by either lowering (or more likely) freezing current medical costs. By that fact alone wouldn't a union be worth fighting for if the only thing it would get you would be a leveling out of medical costs. You then might ask, where would they get the money? Well they just spent a billion dollars recently buying back stock, and will spend another billion in the future buying more back. That is two billion right there that could have gone into a fund that helped cover peoples medical costs more (especially people with kids who have special needs like yours might have. Also know one is entitled to anything. You have to make yourself entitled to it. Remember at one point in time in our nations history people with special needs were not entitled to anything. Someone woke up one day and decided that was wrong. So case in point, know one is entitled to anything only you decide who is entitled to what.


although there is no "I" in team, there is an "M" and an "E", and that's ME! commissioned sales does not promotoe a team effort...by itself, it promotes a sense of singularity...it makes you work harder to make your money, and you shouldn't slow yourself down to the other's pace in your department...you are only as good as you let yourself be in a commissioned selling environment...sears does nothing to promote unity on the salesfloor in BC, ot they would give certain benefits when the department as a whole reaches some sort of goal.
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Unhappy1314


Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 613
Location: New Frickin' Jersey
Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 3:57 pm    Post subject:  
when i was in college, i had a major tied to the environmental field...i always said it was not about the money, i don't care if i don't make a lot of money, my job will be fine for me, yadda yadda yadda!

i graduated last year and sue to our wonderful economy, i could not find a job in the field that i had earned a college degree in, so i had to stick it out with sears for a little while...in the last year, while living completely on my own and making as little as i do at sears, i have come to a realization.

as little as i earn at sears, i would be making significantly less if i had actually found a job in my field, and i am struggling to survive...i have decided to throw out my degree and pursue a career in business, where i can actually support myself and possibly a family in the future.

as i look back to school, i realized that all the people who are all about protesting the "man" and the "corporation" and have all this free time on their hands to do such, are little rich shits who don't have to really work because mommy and daddy provide for everything for them, and they don't have any real situations to deal with, such as surviving.

they have all this free time, and nothing to do with it, so they sit around, smoke heaploads of pot, and try to "save" other people...they do not know what it is like to survive on their own and support themselves or a family...they will get hit with a ton of bricks when they hit the real world, they will come to that realization all too soon.

i am going to go for the business thing and keep my environmental degree as a hobby in the future once i have ecured a place for myself and possibly a future family...good luck to all of you naysayers who thinkt hey can continue "crusading" for the rest of their lives...you'll realize soon what needs to be done...take care of yourself first, and then worry about others
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CCCs


Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Posts: 762
Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 5:17 pm    Post subject:  
sleK wrote:

While what you two (Footie' & BG) are saying isn't entirely unjustified nor a uncommon sentiment, it is precisely the attitude that makes it impossible for you to make meaningful gains in your employment.


A fundamental union premise is "An injustice to one is an injustice to all". Take a minute to examine the implications of such statement if it were actively instituted in a workplace.

To break it down: When a co-worker gets screwed by your employer it becomes everybodies problem and everybodies responsibility to rectify. This is advantageous to employees in a number of ways. Here's one:

Security: Generally speaking, retail has a high employee turnover rate. People have begun to view retail as a pit-stop on the path to a better career. While, in a lot of cases, this may be true, there are many other cases where it isn't.

IMO high employee turnover correlates directly with poor treatment of employees by management.

By taking a collective stand against unjustified, discriminatory, biased and/or just plain stupid decisions that affect the livelihoods of your co-workers you create an environment where long-term employees can earn a gainful and secure living within the industry.

So, while the "sears closes the doors" example provided by Socali is a bit extreme in the eyes of a truly responsible unionist, it is still an example of the "An injustice to one is an injustice to all" attitude that has the potential to bring you more of the things you claim you "need" - like medical and retirement benefits.

:P Very Happy


In theory, I would agree with Slek that collective bargaining has the potential to increase wages and benifits for employees. IN THEORY. But the reality seems to show us something different. Re-examine the ECI from the Bureau of Labor of Statistics from 1998-2003:

Total percentage change between 1998 - 2003:

Wages and Salaries
union = 20%
non-union = 22.1%

Benefit Costs
union = 24.8%
non-union = 26.4%

Total compensation increases since 1998:
union = 21.7%
non-union = 23.1%

It looks to me like workers in non-union shops actually had a greater increase in compensation (wages and benifits) that union workers. And I have yet to be shown that productivity actually increases when a union is in place. So what then will a union really do for me? Enough theory. Give me some facts.
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Socali


Joined: 24 Jul 2003
Posts: 49
Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 5:22 pm    Post subject: We are a family...  
Listen guys, seeing selfishness going on in the sears family structure of my work place is what got me looking for some type of fix.

I been on the force for about 15 years and I'm just tire of the mess I am, and no. I am not quitting because I am not a quitter.
I tend to fix problems one way or another.

In my 15 years of service there were managers that was a total pleasure to work with.

But there has been far more managers that will make you wonder what tha hell did they did to became managers.

In my work place there are people who are be so selfish that you will stand doing nothing watching them work all day.
If you go there and try to practice teamwork they will insult you until you lose your head until you quit or do something stupid in hopes that you will get fire,
In order to eliminate competition sort of speaking. I say it because I seen it happen!

Good teammembers quitted this place and others got fired due to the many, many discrenpancies at my work place.

The floors are greasy and oily with old parts all over trhe floor and no one is a janitor.
You hear the words from everybody saying, If he doesn't clean I wont clean, on and on all day..

Talking to management doesn't work one bit because they are romancing the stupid girls next doors or making friends for cheap laughs.

There is not enough people to keep up with the work, some get injured and no replacement is ever get.

Now I'm injured and I can't go to the doctor or be under workers comp, because the other guys are under workers comp. or Vacation.
Don't even think about it body, your're stuck until the other gets back from worker comp. if he ever does!

He trys to get back and they wont let him, while a couple of us are working in a injured state.

If someone doesn't want to do something I end up doing it.

This situation prevents me from atchieving my full potential and I don't like it.

Would you guys like it?

I could go along with out union but only if we all work together like headquarters prescribes it.

The thing is that we have never work together in years so unionizing is in everyone's head..

So to end up doing janitorial work, injured on things no one wants to do, after my 15 years of service,
diplomas, certifications over 10.000 dollars worth of tools you bet I'm willing to take a chance on the union...

Wouldn't you?

Last edited by Socali on Fri Mar 26, 2004 8:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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FOOTSOLDIER


Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Posts: 1037
Location: Formerly 3333
Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 11:30 pm    Post subject:  
Quote:
sleK wrote:
"While what you two (Footie' & BG) are saying isn't entirely unjustified nor a uncommon sentiment, it is precisely the attitude that makes it impossible for you to make meaningful gains in your employment."


SLEK... I won't go into specifics around my career or any "meaningful gains" I've made but I will tell you I am VERY satisfied with the progress I've made. I've worked my ass off for anything I've been able to receive in my nearly 30 years with Sears. I don't need you telling me about any shortcomings I might have that you know nothing about!
If my career ended today, I would look back on it and be proud of what I, along with the help of a great number of associates, were able to accomplish over the years.

I won't speak for BG about his career. I will let him do that. But as for me, please don't make judgements about things such as my career that you have no idea what you're talking about.

FOOTSOLDIER
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scuba


Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 12
Location: BC
Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 11:42 pm    Post subject:  
One thing someone should take note of. Just because yous become union it doesn't mean that you'll get more money from Sears that way. They will still have their percentage that they will spend on employees salary and benefits. So, an individual may get more if he hasn't been layed off after the first union agreemnent. Remeber: unions negotiate -its give and take. It must sacrifice something, namely some employees, to increase wages.
This would lead to less employees and different hiring tactics by the company. Would you get the extra Christmas help? Do unions hire seasonally? This is all something to consider.
I work with a company that is not union. My manager has been getting his ass burned for not trimming wages. But he sticks up for us. Most people in this store realise this. And don't you fret- head office types notice stores with higher employee qiutes and hires -they may figure out that it could be the managers fault.
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sleK
Administrator

Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 1010
Location: over yonder
Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2003 4:18 am    Post subject:  
FOOTSOLDIER,

from page 8:

Quote:
Just so there is no confusion, I took the liberty to copy SoCali's entire post that started this ruckus. I did correct spelling and grammar too.

His selfishness shows when he makes statements alluding to the fact that it would be better if Sears ceased to exist and everyone would lose their job than to work with supervisors he can't get along with.


(emphasis added)

Your ability to twist and obfuscate the simplest of phrases to satisfy your inability to argue coherently amazes me.

Let's take a close look at what Socali said and compare it with your interpretation:

Socali:
Quote:
the worse thing that could happen is that sears closes the doors and so no one works there anymore.


You:
Quote:
alluding to the fact that it would be better if Sears ceased to exist and everyone would lose their job


There was no "fact" in Socali's post. It was a hypothetical phrased as a worst case scenario.

Please stop twisting others' words to suit your own agenda. Either take it at face value and respond as such, or don't take it at all.

from page 9:

Quote:
I don't need you telling me about any shortcomings I might have that you know nothing about!


Quote:
But as for me, please don't make judgements about things such as my career that you have no idea what you're talking about.


I made a number of pertinent-to-the-topic points, yet you only responded to the same criticism that you felt you had the right to apply to someone else.

I'd call you a hypocrit but I fear your head may explode from the shock of having your position (or lack thereof) questioned.

Now, I'm going to re-iterate the main points of my post that you've ignored. If you'd like to dispute them reasonably, please do.

1) A fundamental union premise is "An injustice to one is an injustice to all".

Agree?
Disagree?
Why?

2) Generally speaking, retail has a high employee turnover rate. People have begun to view retail as a pit-stop on the path to a better career. While, in a lot of cases, this may be true, there are many other cases where it isn't.

Agree?
Disagree?
Why?

3) IMO high employee turnover correlates directly with poor treatment of employees by management.

Agree?
Disagree?
Why?

4) By taking a collective stand against unjustified, discriminatory, biased and/or just plain stupid decisions that affect the livelihoods of your co-workers you create an environment where long-term employees can earn a gainful and secure living within the industry.

Agree?
Disagree?
Why?
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