Proposed Health Care = you need a license just to live: RANT

Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 6309

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090703/ap_on_go_co/us_health_care_overhaul

Under a new senate health care proposal they want to pass a bill that would make health insurance mandatory or be fined for not carrying health care. Assuming that the nanny staters that proposed this have good intentions this is NOT the answer to health care in America .

Not only is this making those who live in America buy something they quite frankly might not be able to afford at various times in their life it is also putting a licensing process on just living in America. This won't work or help alot of people on so many levels is ridiculous , socialist and darn near facist requiring a fee or kickback to live in American-as a US citizen .

First: this bill does not address the number one problem with Health Care in American - C O S T . This is simply another variation of some one else is paying for it - YOU the average US Citizen who will now have a defacto TAX slapped on your ass because you can't afford to pay an INSURANCE company . You will be fined for not doing such .

Second: there are reasons many don't have health INSURANCE coverage including cost . Many going through tough times have to prioritize things like do buy my own food, put gas in may car to go to work , pay the electric bill and many of the other costs which need money on a daily basis.

By requiring health INSURANCE you could be forcing many people into a socialist government bureaucracy because now since you were forced to buy INSURANCE you now need food stamps,welfare or section 8 housing. Or might be forced to sell off personal possessions of value(watch out if you make too much money selling personal crap because you will be TAXED-again along with the defacto health care INSURANCE tax.

And to those who try to make scapegoats out of those that don't carry health insurance -get lost! It is YOU who decided to pay for YOUR health with INSURANCE and not cash ,payments plans ,discount cards , clinics or use simple OTC remedies . If you want a plan that allows you to run to the doctor's office for the sniffles with INSURANCE that's on YOU. Take some responsibility for YOUR health and take a walk around the block instead of the counter at McDonalds then go to medical industry and have YOUR INSURANCE company pay for the zipper they put on your chest to rotozip YOUR arteries. If YOU can't get it up I don't care. If you don't get excited I don't care . YOU need to educate and train YOURSELF to prevent and even cure alot of the stuff YOU run to the doctor's office for like a little kid who just lost their teddy bear.

There are ALOT of problems AND solutions with health care but this proposal doesn't control the COSTS from a system that has based THEIR COST under the premise someone else is paying for it or INSURANCE . If medical school tuition is supposedly alledgedly driving doctors fees up then deal with that 1 issue. If lawsuits are alledgedly driving doctor's COST up to pay for INSURANCE then deal with that as a seperate issue .

Again this is another variation of someone else is paying for it because it doesn't address things like COST,fraud, ILLEGAL immigration,gouging or the associated profiting industries who know down the road an INSURANCE company is paying for all this wether it be a Drug or MRI manufacturer. COST and not control of the citizen who MIGHT need to go into a health care systemh who is using/abusing INSURANCE like a junkie on crack.

There are many issues involved with health CARE and COST and they should be dealt with one by one.

Joined: 22 Dec 2007 Posts: 461

"Under a new senate health care proposal they want to pass a bill that would make health insurance mandatory or be fined for not carrying health care. Assuming that the nanny staters that proposed this have good intentions this is NOT the answer to health care in America ."

Well like it or not it has been that way in mass. It has reduced the amount of ER visits which frees up more resources

"Not only is this making those who live in America buy something they quite frankly might not be able to afford at various times in their life it is also putting a licensing process on just living in America. This won't work or help alot of people on so many levels is ridiculous , socialist and darn near facist requiring a fee or kickback to live in American-as a US citizen ."

But other countries have higher income taxes and everyone gets health care (UK for example) so what's the difference? Care cannot be free, someone has to pay down the line.

"First: this bill does not address the number one problem with Health Care in American - C O S T . This is simply another variation of some one else is paying for it - YOU the average US Citizen who will now have a defacto TAX slapped on your ass because you can't afford to pay an INSURANCE company . You will be fined for not doing such ."

But you cannot address cost unless you maximize the coverage. When more people are covered then you can lower the costs with bulk buying. This is what was wrong with the perscription drug bill that was signed...they didn't ask for lower rates.

"Second: there are reasons many don't have health INSURANCE coverage including cost . Many going through tough times have to prioritize things like do buy my own food, put gas in may car to go to work , pay the electric bill and many of the other costs which need money on a daily basis."

True to a point but that's implying as if health care shouldn't be a #1 priority

Let me say this. How much is too much for health care? We have different costs of living in the country. It's hard to arbitrarily just slap on a uniform price for everyone. I'm in Mass and there are some if they cannot afford the plan then there's a subsidized plan (i.e. free) but that's wrong on multiple fronts. How can a doctors visit not be worth $5? or even $1? The concept of a free care is a fallacy. Besides if you don't pay for something then you have no right to complain about it.

Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 6309

This is NOT about free health care. It is about using INSURANCE as A -just one possible method of paying for health care . The problem is that most in the health care INDUSTRY have voluntarilly decided to accept most INSURANCE as not just A form of payment but THE only method of payment and have based all of THEIR cost on THEIR PREFERRED method of payment.

Maximizing coverage is fine IF you want to pay for YOUR medical care with INSURANCE or particular type of INSURANCE or INSURANCE that pays the medical industry on a particular fee schedule.

The last REGULAR family or general practicioner doc I had only charged 30$ or so for an office visit -near the end of his career. He flat out refused to deal with insurance but you got more than 2 minutes with the doc . That 5$ deductable you pay is only part of a sometimes 150$ bill for minutes with the doc-if that.

And by the way from I understand the Taxachussets(ooops ment Mass. plan) has been loosing control of costs . You try mandating this crap in a warm weather state where you have a large senior,immigrant and lower payed work force problem this won't fly. In California they're already issuing IOUs for their existing bills how the heck are they going to pay off the INSURANCE companies who provide mandated low cost insurance . Florida has one of the highest percentages of it's population of public assitance including food stamps, throw in some hurricanes how will they pay for this crap. The Auto INSURANCE industry already pulled this crap decades ago .And that's another thing-when we are forced to buy government mandated health INSURANCE will we have to sign away our right to sue there to in order to get the lowest costs.

The medical industry is strung out on INSURANCE like a junkie on crack . You take away the medical industry's fix/INSURANCE and they will shake,quiver,sweat and puke just like a crack head in detox. Paying for YOUR medical care ONLY with INSURANCE is NOT the only solution and will probably cause problems elsewhere in " the system ' simply because you have been placed .

Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 6309

health care or healthy living ? Which gets paid for first?

Your priority is getting through the day , surviving for the next DAY , surviving the present day . In order to do that you need to eat,drink and maintain 98.6 body temperature . In our society unless you have a farm and log cabin you have to PAY for the daily necessities of life. Even free health CARE won't mean crap if you starve,dehydrate or freeze to death . Avoiding these afflictions is a daily struggle especially since YOU have to PAY for them with money . And ironically it's part of HEALTHy living.

How is prioritizing INSURANCE paid health care more important than paying for the daily necessities of life that if not obtained and paid for will leave you unhealthy if not DEAD. How is having an INSURANCE paid health care plan going to help YOU SURVIVE when they only thing it will pay for is tell you have non symptamatic cancer that will kill you a year from now. But that's the whole point - get the basics out of the way first and true NON INSURANCE paid health care will follow.

Joined: 06 Jul 2003 Posts: 8380 Location: Central CA

Joined: 22 Dec 2007 Posts: 461

"More anecdotal "evidence"? How about.... "How many people die because they can no longer even seek help in emergency rooms which are now reserved only for those with insurance or tons of cash for private pay?
Never mind... don't bother."

The plan is still young the data is still taking time to get out.

"Yeah Dovell... and letting everyone without adequate health insurance because they have to choose between it and something to eat or somewhere to live simply DIE will free up a lot MORE resources, not to mention the tons of money it will save for our for profit health care providers. After all, isn't obscene profits for the mega corporations the important thing here?"

There's a choice within the plans. It's not that you MUST pick one plan and it's one plan only for the state.

here's the main website
http://www.mahealthconnector.org/portal/site/connector

You have a choice of plans. If you want more coverage you can pay more for it.

In other states if you do not have insurance then the ER often becomes peoples primary care

"And by the way from I understand the Taxachussets(ooops ment Mass. plan) has been loosing control of costs . You try mandating this crap in a warm weather state where you have a large senior,immigrant and lower payed work force problem this won't fly."

Immigrants? We have quite a large immigrant community. I'm taking a class now with two nigerians, one from albania, one from brazil, columbia, India and Turkey. We do have a large senior community as if people can't afford to move well...they can't move. We've had nearly eight or so accidents with elderly people hitting buildings or people in the past month!

In terms of "taxachusetts" we rank 23rd in the country for the tax amounts
www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/460.html if you want to see high taxes in the northeast try CT

"The Auto INSURANCE industry already pulled this crap decades ago ."

So you think you don't need auto insurance? I can see that for a small town maybe but not a city. In NH you don't have a law for insurance and their rates (if you want it) are lower there than in MA but you try telling that to people after those accidents I mensioned above. Actually they are debating if elderly people will qualify for a discount after all of this.

"And that's another thing-when we are forced to buy government mandated health INSURANCE will we have to sign away our right to sue there to in order to get the lowest costs."

As long as you are paying then you'd easily have a right to sue.

Look...ok this is nearly the same thing that they have in europe with Swisszerland

i'm just confused here...so what exactly do you want for health care? Public or private? cheap or expensive?

Look here's the four models of health care
www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/countries/models.html

If you want the Beveridge system then we need to have higher income taxes (most likely...simply slapping a tax on alcohol or tobacco isn't nearly enough)

The Bismark model is basically massachusetts, germany, france, belgium, netherlands and japan..

nation health insurance which is a mix of bismark and beveridge...this would be canada and south korea (private practices are illegal in canada...I highly doubt we can can go as far as what they have done)

lastly out of pocket...just straight out cash

so the answers seem to be either higher taxation, mandates or having the the government and insurance companies fight it out..

Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 6309

Taxachussets DEAD? -Yeap but just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water...

We have Massachussets- the license just to live state

We have Massachussets- the license just to live state with mandated health care INSURANCE coverage in a state when there was a prospective Republican presidential candidate several years before an election ;Mitt Romney -NO GRANDSTANDING THERE...

I digress: been following the license just to live state for a while now and found an OUTSTANDING piece on the license just to live state's mandated health INSURANCE coverage .

http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2008-fall/mandatory-health-insurance.asp

There are so many things here many of which have been noted else where but are part of the many problems with ' the plan '

You have problems like arguments over what's going to be covered when you have to buy a state mandated/sanctioned plan . The government still has to subsidize that mandated coverage one way or another( so in effect it's another defacto TAX )

Many doctors are complaining and threatening not to practice under the mandated health INSURANCE plan sanction by the state because in order to control the costS payments to doctors have to be reduced .

While the plan is decreasing the number of un health INSURED patients CARE wait times have increased in many instances .

The requirements of the mandated health INSURANCE plan in the license just to live state are such that people making $60K had to be subsidized to get the mandated health care INSURANCE . ( WTF is the cost of living when 60K can't get you health care INSURANCE. - or is than an elitist commie ploy to get rid of segments of their own population )

And being that this plan is mandatory it has been described as ' thinley veiled welfare ' -that's where everyone'e going to wind up any way.

Much more in the piece but it all still comes down to looking at INSURANCE as the only possible solution to health care cost. No matter who pays , with a gun to their head or not THAT particular solution still comes down to WHO is going to pay and not WHAT EXACTLY is being paid for or WHY it is being paid for .

Taxachussets will regain their title when this mandated health INSURANCE coverage has to be subsidized even more .

Joined: 06 Jul 2003 Posts: 8380 Location: Central CA

Joined: 22 Dec 2007 Posts: 461

The site referenced states
"In stark contrast to these philosophic approaches, ours is a philosophy of reality, reason, egoism, and laissez-faire capitalism. In a word, we uphold Objectivism, the philosophy of Ayn Rand, and it serves as our frame of reference in analyzing the cultural and political issues of the day"

So they don't believe in any health care system..so naturally they won't like the mass plan.

All I'm saying is this...what exactly do you want? Do you want a public plan? A private plan? A mandated plan etc?

If you want private insurance but want it to be cheap I'm sorry but the market generally can bring prices up or down. As it standands now much of the money here is specialist care rather than general practice (even animal care is the same)

The end of the article states
"We must demand a genuine free market in health insurance and health care, because only a free market can provide us with the quality, affordable health care that we all need."

Ok so the answer is to just buy your insurance on your own then?

It's certainly odd that I get slammed from nofsdad implying I'm on the far right and then on this as if I'm on the far left.

OK fine...so what is the solution for health care then?

Any ideas?

Joined: 22 Dec 2007 Posts: 461

posted in wrong area

Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 6309

What model do I want or do I think is best ? -NONE of them is the answer . And that's the whole problem all these models and proposed ' solutions ' are tend to look at where and who the money is going to come rather than the system and or COSTs themselves .

I tell you what if you go out of pocket there would be no more $700 aspirins . And that's yet another problem . How the heck can someone propose a change or fix when they don't have accurate data on WHERE the money is going or WHAT it's being spent on . There should be no more of this padding the bill to cover cost's elsewhere . If it cost 699$ of nursing services that were not included in the hospital's base rate/bill you note there was an additional 699$ in nursing services and not 'Oh we had to dispense 700$ in drugs' . But you get those jacked bills because the billers think they are billing a nameless faceless INSURANCE company and not individuals .

The best ' system ' would be a choice ,that way doctors or patients wouldn't be locked into a system they don't want .

Again WHERE is the cost coming from -Doctors trying to pay off medical school loans,their Porsche,pharmasuetical research,price gouging,clerks.office managers etc -WHERE is the cost coming from ? WHAT is causing the cost to go up ? NOT WHO is going to pay a bill based on the premise someone else is paying for it .

I'm going to try and find the article but I saw where I think it was GE was crying that too many hospitals and practices where simply buying upgrades and updates for stuff like MRI equipments and NOT buying new machines . BUT where and who allowed a system that perpetuated the purchase of new equipment rather than updating and retrofitting it . This is just one example of how the medical INDUSTRY sells their wares based on the premise someone else is paying for it .

The auto INSURANCE industry is an excellent example of how perpetuating insurance has produced higher body damage cost . EXAMPLE-I've lived in different states ;in one state a cracked windshield cost around 100-175$ to REPLACE . I lived in another state where the state MANDATED that insurance companies cover cracked windshields with no deductable because of all the highways/incidents . The average cost to replace a windshield was 200$-350$ simply because the shops knew and exploited the insurance regulations/coverage. You can't tell me all these doctors and hospitals aren't doing the same thing especially when they hire CLERKS to bill the INSURANCE companies .

If you want to pay with insurance fine, If you want to pay out of pocket fine , If you want a combination fine but to mandate ONE SINGLE form of payment creates a game the medical industry WILL EXPLOIT . The best ' system ' has choices and options . The best systems would actually control or monitor costs and billing practices . The best system would actually address the alledged actual reasons for high$ price gouging medical care wether it be $150K in student loans or a $700 aspirin .

Joined: 26 Aug 2008 Posts: 306

I am not a real fan of what I have been hearing come out so far. They need to take small steps with this and not massive sweeping changes. Step 1, and the easiest to implement should be nationalizing the health records. We spend about 33% of our health costs on administrative crap. By adopting a nationalized record service, by comparison Canada, with a nationalized system, pays about 16%. It would get rid of a lot of redundancy. Doctor B has no clue what Doctor A ordered or when, and on down the line.

I also read where they are talking about fining businesses $750 per employee per year that they don't offer health insurance to. This is a tricky one as I do think that there are some companies that should be offereing insurance to employees that don't, but there are small businesses out there right now where owners are down to haiving to sell personal assets to try and keep their business afloat. A small company with 10 employees getting hit with a $7500 fine just might be what puts them out of business, and now we get to pay for 10 more folks on unemployment and government assistance.

The bottom line for me is that our current system is completely broken. A good chunk of our medical care goes to a never ending paper trail, and to fatten up the insurance companies portfolio. I would much rather see the whole industry more regulated, but the problem comes, much like wall street, is that those that would be regulated have the ear of the politicians, so the regualtions get so watered down and full of loopholes that what comes out the other end benefits them and screws us.

Joined: 22 Dec 2007 Posts: 461

"What model do I want or do I think is best ? -NONE of them is the answer . And that's the whole problem all these models and proposed ' solutions ' are tend to look at where and who the money is going to come rather than the system and or COSTs themselves ."

Ok that's fair.

"I tell you what if you go out of pocket there would be no more $700 aspirins . And that's yet another problem . How the heck can someone propose a change or fix when they don't have accurate data on WHERE the money is going or WHAT it's being spent on . There should be no more of this padding the bill to cover cost's elsewhere . If it cost 699$ of nursing services that were not included in the hospital's base rate/bill you note there was an additional 699$ in nursing services and not 'Oh we had to dispense 700$ in drugs' . But you get those jacked bills because the billers think they are billing a nameless faceless INSURANCE company and not individuals ".

Actually with billing you can dispute things going line after line. If you negociate do that with the doctor not the biller.

"Again WHERE is the cost coming from -Doctors trying to pay off medical school loans,their Porsche,pharmasuetical research,price gouging,clerks.office managers etc -WHERE is the cost coming from ? WHAT is causing the cost to go up ? NOT WHO is going to pay a bill based on the premise someone else is paying for it ."

Not all doctors drive a porche. I'm in mass and we have a fair number of hospitals and I don't see that much for luxury cars in the lots. Anyways I do know a doctor that probably has 100K in loans or so. The cost can go up due to lack of staffing. Some nurses where I am are union and have gone on strike now and again. Forced overtime can often lead to fatigue which causes more medical mistakes.

I know an engineer at a drug company and he can describe plenty of meds that haven't been released yet because the FDA hasn't allowed them to. If a drug works do you release it not knowing if it will cause problems or do so thinking it will save lives? That's a pretty heavy thing to live with.

"I'm going to try and find the article but I saw where I think it was GE was crying that too many hospitals and practices where simply buying upgrades and updates for stuff like MRI equipments and NOT buying new machines . BUT where and who allowed a system that perpetuated the purchase of new equipment rather than updating and retrofitting it . This is just one example of how the medical INDUSTRY sells their wares based on the premise someone else is paying for it ."

True although GE also sells a machine that offers force feedback technology. A doctor can put hands into gloves that then operate the gloves of a system remotely in another country. However if you think about it if it can work that way that also means it can work the OTHER way. So a doctor in germany can perform a surgury on someone in the USA without leaving the country.

It should also be noted that some are going overseas for medical care...not europe but India. Their Apollo program is cheaper and people pay cash because they can afford it..if it's too long in canada and too expensive in the USA and if the insurance doesn't cover it well this is another option
http://www.apollohospdelhi.com/news.html

"The auto INSURANCE industry is an excellent example of how perpetuating insurance has produced higher body damage cost . EXAMPLE-I've lived in different states ;in one state a cracked windshield cost around 100-175$ to REPLACE . I lived in another state where the state MANDATED that insurance companies cover cracked windshields with no deductable because of all the highways/incidents . The average cost to replace a windshield was 200$-350$ simply because the shops knew and exploited the insurance regulations/coverage. You can't tell me all these doctors and hospitals aren't doing the same thing especially when they hire CLERKS to bill the INSURANCE companies ."

I understand that..I'm in a state where it's free.

"If you want to pay with insurance fine, If you want to pay out of pocket fine , If you want a combination fine but to mandate ONE SINGLE form of payment creates a game the medical industry WILL EXPLOIT . The best ' system ' has choices and options . The best systems would actually control or monitor costs and billing practices . The best system would actually address the alledged actual reasons for high$ price gouging medical care wether it be $150K in student loans or a $700 aspirin."

I understand what you are saying but nearly everything that requires a layer of a degree or a license for someone to perform it is going to cost some significant money. Going well beyond just doctors. Lawyers for example won't even bother to talk to someone (unless pro bono) unless there's a $300 minimum. Plumbers, carpenters, electricians all cost quite a bit. I worked in a retailer for home improvement and in my state it's against the law to reroute plumbing. You can do a toilet or a sink no problem but nothing in walls, roofs, celilings or floors. The law in effect protects the trade. Other services that have gone up would be child care, auto care...the biggest I'd say is nursing homes as they aren't even really nurses...

Segments of my family work in enviromental protection. If you have a oil spill you are nearly looking at a minimum 10,000 for a job. Enviromental regulations, osha regs, transportation all add up. Everyone has to have a physical and a drug test and that eliminates a segment right there so there are qualifications just to work even before training.

Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 6309

I don't know if I am a fan of a nationalized record keeping system for private medical records . If a patient voluntarily wants to submit their records to a central data base that's ok but for YOUR PRIVATE medical records that are supposed to be between you and your doctor to automatically go into a national data base I don't want .

They can't even keep highley confidential financial records secure . Pentagon secrets leak out . This opens the door to all sorts of privacy violations . Also what if the system goes down or their is a malfunction -what sort of back up should be required .

Unless you have a chronic condition why should someone's medical records even be considered for a nationalized data base .

And that's another thing if private insurance companies are going to fund/administrate some kind of health care what's to stop them from dropping or excluding you for a pre-existing condition . You might eventually get coverage but not of your choice .This also makes rationing of health care more likely because your medical status might be used for scheduling or even qualifying for certain care .

And what would stop doctors from creating a blacklist of pain in the butt patients or patients who sue by coding or writing narratives a certain way . All that private and personal information in one place is too shakey for me .

Joined: 26 Aug 2008 Posts: 306

Joined: 26 Aug 2005 Posts: 1707

dictator, I can't say I agree with the bill - or with you.
But, SOMETHING has to be done.

It just ain't right that a family faces bankruptcy if a child gets lukemia. Or if a grandparent ends up with Alzheimer's.

Bankruptcy, dictator.

There's something very wrong with the system.
We're supposed to be the damned GREATEST nation on earth, but our people cannot afford to get sick.

I welcome any policy that will take power away from health insurance companies.
THEY are running the show. Not the docs.

Joined: 06 Jul 2003 Posts: 8380 Location: Central CA

I tend to agree with Magnolia but in my opinion, the Docs are doing their share as are the drug companies. As long as we have an unregulated for profit health care delivery system that is allowed to operate just like all the other big corporations do in this day of capitalism run amok... we are ALWAYS going to have a huge number of people who can't afford to take part in it.

No matter which part of the health care "Axis of Greed" segments you blame the most, the simple and unequivocal fact remains... people are being allowed to die because they can't pay the goddamned price for the treatment they need to stay alive. As long as that's going on then the "Greatest Country In The World" could damned well be better than it is.

And if that simple statement makes me an "America hating lefty" to a certain small segment of the population who still thinks that profit for the companies they have stock in should somehow be more important to me than my own life or death and that of thousands of other people every year who are victimized in order to provide a maximum return to them... they can jump into their obscure little bully pulpit on their obscure little web site(s) and do gross things to themselves from now to fricking doomsday.

Joined: 22 Dec 2007 Posts: 461

The thing is really how to convert something from profit to non profit. I'm in mass and we have a fair number of hospitals. People enter the medical field for the money here. I've met only one that would want to do Doctors Without Borders.
I was talking to two nurses in training and one was mensioning something about getting a pension...um someone in their 20's training to get a job in 2009 thinking they are getting a pension? How out of the loop can you be!

I've also heard of things going beyond just kickbacks from drug companies. Like doctors owning MRI machines...how can you trust results if the doctor owns the machine?

Maybe the answer lies in trying to break down care. Recently in my state they made walk in clinics at drug stores legal. Of course the ama fought it but lost. Not everything requires a doctor to see.

there's also a growing fear from some employers that the health care costs will keep going up. there's "wellness programs" that try to promote healthier living. Don't be suprised if some employers give away things to quit smoking or give away gym memberships and exercise equipment. they might get a discount on the insurance from this

Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 6309

I can see having insurance to pay for a catastrophic illness/hospitalization or insurance for lesser chronic conditions that really need regular monitoring. Too me that is EXACTLY WHAT INSURANCE should be for: a catastrophic event. But is it really necessary to have insurance to run to the docs for the sniffles . Or should the docs be able to bill like they treated you for cancer when they treated the sniffles .

I've seen docs 'squeeze me in' after a cancelled appointment and have the gaul to add an emergency visit surcharge on the bill . Wait a minute - you made me wait a couple of days for someone to cancel,call me tell me you have an opening from a routine appointment ,see me and yet bill me like you saw me right away ??? But all this crap comes from the INSURANCE based system which is played like a game .

I had another office visit-different situation for a bee sting where the swelling didn't go down for 3 days -not allergic . After 10 minutes of paperwork and 3 minutes with the doctor I payed a 50 dollar deductable or copay and the doc billed the insurance company an additional 100$ for a 3 minute session and prescription anti inflammatory steriod - another 25$ . 150$ for ...

And with INSURANCE the docs think they are union in that they are entitled to prevailing wage or the maximum the insurance company will pay and yet not what they would normally charge.

I blame and hold the medical industry itself mostly responsible for the exploitation of the INSURANCE based health care system .BUT since quite frequently these cos & docs work hand & hand . I bet you some of these doc's clerks know the insurance co reps by first name and have a working relationship with many. But where do you draw the line between working relationship and conflict of interest or collusion .

Again all these health care solutions seem to looking for money to throw at problems they won't identify or even look for alternatives . And both the insurance co's and docs are playing each other, the patient & public AGAINST each other.

You start or continue to do stuff like raise taxes,reduce your privacy or even allow doc & insurance co's to run wild and the very quality of life you are trying to increase with better health care will be diminished by other sacrifices .

Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 6309

That AARP article posted by Calapso has alot of good stuff in it including many Americans are OVER treated for or get un-necessary treatments. Can't agree more. Some things left untreated aren't as bad as getting a treatment with side effects let alone the chance of someone screwing up. They said patients are very demanding -yeah...

But I think part of the over treatment problems comes from the docs not explaining the CONSEQUENCES and/or side effects of treatment. Nor do they offer enough alternatives including non percription chemical treatment for simple stuff like high BP .OR are they able to control their greed and awe of power,MONEY and celeberty like MJ's docs .

One reason I'm against a centralized data base of YOUR PRIVATE medical records are situations like this http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,530560,00.html . It's nothing but a big juicy target for some.

Another reason is that I don't think as many of the ' duplicate ' procedures are from not being able to get the originals . I've known too many who have had continous pain from not really accurately diagnosed problems. And the same docs who can't hit the nail on the head order more of the same test . I know some who in less than 18 months had about 3 visits,3 xrays/mri's, 2 procedures for the wrong diagnosis. Basically it was a combination of injurys and/or conditions but NOT the original diagnosis. And one other thing. These same docs -got pain?-here's a prescription for pain killer. When the same practice order duplicate X-rays and/or can't diagnose correctly how is that lack of adequate medical records . But this is just another example of waste and/or abuse-that the medical industry gets paid for.

Joined: 22 Dec 2007 Posts: 461

There's certainly more given to cure something than should be sometimes. There's also people that die due to mistakes. Here's one for the way back machine. Remember the comedian Dany Carvey?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dana_Carvey The doctors operated on the wrong artery! Sued and got 7.5 million.

A local tv channel near me has a news segment on the whole health industry and asking as to why the costs or so high.

One author basically said that there's this over hype on technology. competitions to get the latest and greatest devices and procedures...and yet there often times is nothing to show for it. Going on to say that hospitals that get on this buying spree of things don't always give better care. I looked up stats for hospitals and dispite being in the northeast I'd say the best are the Mayo Clinic and John Hopkins..obviously hundreads of miles away.

The author also went on to say that the saintlyhood like image of non profits in the medical field should be more examined. The earnings and salaries are certainly enough to warrent it being profit. Just because there's no shares issued somehow means there's no taxation?!?

Joined: 26 Aug 2005 Posts: 1707

Have a look at this:

This is an actual bill from the hospital for 12 hours of emergency care.

http://site.nwfdailynews.com/pdf/12wendy.pdf

BTW - this person was transferred to a 2nd hospital.
Second bill is @ the same as this one.

BTW - this person died.

Don't go to an American hospital unless you're ready to pay the piper.

Joined: 06 Jul 2003 Posts: 8380 Location: Central CA

I had a friend who was in a minor accident... the 7 block ride to the hospital in an ambulance was over 500 bucks by itself.

Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 6309

Ouch and condolences

And this for the some of the best health care in the world???

160K pharmacy bill??? 155K for What is ESMOLOL ? 16K in tests and 35K in useless treatment ??? Also saw 650 for Tylenol and yet there is some kind of globin on the bill for 36$
which seems like the process would be more complex to make .

Curious was this an older patient and was this private insurance,medicare/medicade or cash ?

Joined: 06 Jul 2003 Posts: 8380 Location: Central CA

Older and Medicare... Medicare only paid part though and he was responsible for the rest.

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