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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:46 am Post subject: Al Gore and the "incompetence" of the Bush admin | |||||||
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Al Gore gave a speech at NYU last month that quite meticulously spells out the danger that Bush's administration poses to Americans and the rest of the world.
Citing a veritable smorgasbord of authorities on matters of intelligence, military, law, and even philosophy, Gore uses the current state of affairs in Iraq, the events leading up to the invasion and the diminished state of civil liberties in the US to make the case that the Bush administration is, literally, "incompetent". Some highlights:
It's an interesting read. It's REALLY long though and, oddly enough, a copy of the speech has been posted in its entirety on Bruce "Born in the USA" Springsteen's web site. Whether you agree or disagree with the conclusions Gore draws, I encourage everyone to read it as it's quite eloquent (which seems rather out of character for Gore  ) and illustrates, to a fairly reasonable degree, exactly what the folks opposed to the invasion feared and how their fears have seemingly come true.
Regardless, one of the major questions Gore raises is about accountability. Specifically, Gore calls for "the immediate resignations of those immediately below George Bush and Dick Cheney who are most responsible for creating the catastrophe that we are facing in Iraq". That the situation in Iraq isn't going all that well is pretty much common knowledge. What I'd like to discuss is whether or not the individuals Gore cites as responsible for the "catastrophe" in Iraq should resign and why or why not. Here's the cast (I omitted George Tenet 'cuz I heard he has already resigned): Donald Rumsfeld Paul Wolfowitz Douglas Feith Stephen Cambone Condoleeza Rice Obviously, as I've personally been opposed to the invasion since the git-go and I've always been a big fan of accountability (<= my primary peeve with labour unions) , I see only positive things from these individuals resignations and the possibility of a clean-slate. However, a case could be made for "staying the course" and that's what I'm interested most in hearing from the pro-Bush/pro-War peeps. |
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Joined: 07 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 12:06 pm Post subject: | |
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The people who should resign are those who are responsible for carrying out the abuses and any superior who knew about them and did nothing to stop them.
Al Gore is on a political witch hunt designed to oust President Bush and put John Kerry in the White House. Make no mistake about his intentions or what motivates him. I put ZERO stock in much of anything the "inventor of the internet" has to say. Footie |
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Joined: 07 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 3:54 pm Post subject: | |
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The speech may be "quite eloquent" as you describe it, but most of it is based on loose interpretation of the facts on not purely on reality. As far as the speech being on Springsteen's website, that is not suprising as he is a staunch anti-war activist whose song "Born in the USA" is about as far from patriotic as you can get.
Accountability. This word can be used in discussing success as well as failure. Is our Operation in Iraq a failure? That cannot be determined yet as the Operation is still in progress. Let's look at what has been accomplished. Saddam no longer in power (stated US policy since Clinton-Gore 1998). New Iraqi government in place before stated June 30th handoff date. Entire UN Security Council votes to recognize new Iraqi government. Plan for national elections in January 2005 so that Iraq may have a representative government in place with a new constitution. New government positions itself as anti-terror. In 2001, Bush gave speech outlining new pre-emptive policy against terrorists. The United States will go after terrorists where they live and will go after nations that aid terrorists. Iraq was one of those nations. So why should any from this administration resign based on the outcome of these actions so far? |
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:58 am Post subject: | |||||||||||||||||
Footsoldier,
Then you agree that the peeps Gore listed should resign?
That much is obvious however attacking his motives in no way shape or form disputes the accuracy of his position on the matter.
Fortunately character attacks don't dispute anything either. CCCs,
Is there anything in particular you'd like to dispute? What exactly did Gore get wrong?
How so?
That's not necessarily true.
According to Gore, citing a report from the International Institute for Strategic Studies, as a result of the war in Iraq "Al Qaeda now has more than 18,000 potential terrorists scattered around the world and the war in Iraq is swelling its ranks". Having no reason to doubt the IISS, I would think that creating more terrorists and giving them even more reason to retaliate is a sign of the utter failure of the "War on Terror". It's pretty much the polar-opposite of the US's proclaimed intentions, is it not? And, if true, it succinctly demonstrates the literal incompetance of the WoT's designers. Using pest-control as an analogy, let's say I design and promote a single-use device called the "ultimate mouse-trap" and you purchase the device, at an exorbitant price, to rid your home of mice. If, after installation of the device, you find that the mice have multiplied and have become an even bigger nuisance than before, how likely are you to purchase another "ultimate mouse-trap"? |
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Joined: 07 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 5:17 am Post subject: | |
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Born in the USA Lyrics:
Born down in a dead man's town The first kick I took was when I hit the ground You end up like a dog that's been beat too much Till you spend half your life just covering up CHORUS Born in the U.S.A. I was born in the U.S.A. I was born in the U.S.A. Born in the U.S.A. Got in a little hometown jam So they put a rifle in my hand Sent me off to a foreign land To go and kill the yellow man CHORUS Come back home to the refinery Hiring man says, "Son if it was up to me." Went down to see my V.A. man He said, "Son, don't you understand now." Had a brother at Khe Sahn Fighting off the Viet Cong They're still there he's all gone He had a woman he loved in Saigon I got a picture of him in her arms now Down in the shadow of the penitentiary Out by the gas fires of the refinery I'm ten years burning down the road Now here to run ain't got nowhere to go CHORUS I'm a long gone Daddy in the U.S.A. Born in the U.S.A. Born in the U.S.A. Born in the U.S.A. I'm a cool rocking Daddy in the U.S.A. |
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Joined: 04 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 5:43 am Post subject: | |||||
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/breaking_1.html
The French and the left are proven wrong time after time.......remember sleK when you said that the Pres lied about WMDS and I posted Tenets words denying that the Administration had NOT twisted the CIA info.........well here is something else for you............ |
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:00 am Post subject: | |
| I don't see anything un-patriotic in those lyrics CCCs. Perhaps you could explain in a new thread? | |
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 11:39 am Post subject: | |||||
Worldtribune.com? An east asian centred paper? In older posts you would dismiss such publication houses as "anti-american", non-mainstream total speculations. Now you all of a sudden believe them?! And you have the gall to call Kerry "two-faced". Ho-kay. Pot ... kettle ... you know the rest In any event, I'll let you bask in your newfound false glory for a week or two, so that the "pro-american", mainstream media has a chance to catch up with this breaking story. You can call this a raincheck.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:24 pm Post subject: | |||
[quote="sleK"]Footsoldier,
Then you agree that the peeps Gore listed should resign? _____________________________________________________ Those individuals have stated they had no knowledge of the atrocities that Al Gore mentions so NO, I do not agree with Gore's suggestion. I do believe in the Geneva convention and not for a second, should we tolerate personal abuses of POW's, but it would be nice if for a moment or two, some of these people showed as much remorse and concern for the TRUE victims here.... those who lost their lives on 9/11 and their family members left to carry on without them. Footie Last edited by FOOTSOLDIER on Sat Jun 12, 2004 3:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:01 pm Post subject: | |||
Ok, song is anti-war...not unpatriotic. I should have been more careful in my description. |
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:33 pm Post subject: | |||||||
LOL WHATEVER.....gee thanks for "letting" me do anything! I linked the article because the things it asserts seem to be factual. If not, it is a pretty big lie by a paper that would seem to be fairly neutral.........unlike the "mainstream media" wich is most often anti-American. You would really hate it if GWB and America was correct wouldn't you??? The left is so rabidly anti-American that it is no longer credible. |
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 7:10 pm Post subject: | |||
No takers on the increasing numbers of terrorists as sign of the WoT's failure?
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 9:35 pm Post subject: | |||||
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^
To add to that ...
...and my favorite line ...
Gee, where have we heard that one before? Those elusive WMD perhaps? Don't tell me they're going to use that line for every one of their screw ups now. Actually, you don't need to tell me, they're telling me themselves - that they are! 
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 11:01 pm Post subject: | |||||||
In 2003, Bush gave another speech:
...and barely a month ago, Bush gave yet another speech:
Last edited by kanaka on Sat Jun 12, 2004 11:11 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 11:03 pm Post subject: | |
| Al Gore and the left are grasping for straws. They are wacko. | |
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 12:04 am Post subject: | |
| I have heard another interesting theory on this...........By attacking Iraq the plan was indeed draw the terrorists into one place.....if you know where they are you can kill them all. But lets be real....the US needs a base in the middle east to make sure oil and gas reserves are safe to keep the US (hence the worlds) economy safe and healthy. Like it or not the blood of the US economy is OIL. If the oil stops the US economy is shattered, hence the world slips into a depression that makes the 3o's look small. The US is Canada largest trading partner...what would happen to Canada if the US economy failed???? Goodbye great white north. Kanaka can piss and moan all day about American arrogance but face the truth for once. Our economy is the engine that drives the world and oil is the fuel for that engine. So tell me again how keeping the Middle East stable and trying to make it more democrtatic is a bad thing? | |
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 1:26 am Post subject: | |
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My, what a big head you have grandma. Careful, those big teeth might pop it, if it gets any bigger. :)
Anyhow, you really are full of yourself. I bet you have trouble traveling outside of your borders with an arrogant attitude like that. Without a gun, you are nothing but a worn out old gramophone, playing an old, scratched vinyl, stuck in the most boring part. You wonder why so many people are hating America more and more each day. It's because of arrogant little people like you. You're ruining it for the next american generation with your "moronic verses" to the world. The US economy is the world's economy?! You need to follow events outside of your hermit hole, my dear. The european economy is gaining strength daily, while the US economy is near collapse. Your rates are ready to go up any day now, EU is already a bigger trading partner of China than the US, and many other signs that while US falters, others are steaming on. The bubble is about to pop on the US economy - most know it and are preparing, while you're in denial. For the sake of your younger generations, you better hope and pray that Bush doesn't win another term in office. I seriously doubt the world could take another four years of gun-happy Big Heads running around proclaiming that they are the centre of the universe. You are a minority, my dear, a power hungry breed that never knows how to properly handle that power when they finally acquire it. All you do is misuse that power and mess things up for the rest of the peaceful world around you. I've got a great self-help idea for that Big Head Syndrome - it's called a pin. |
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:04 am Post subject: | |||||
Please show the growth rates of the German French and British economys compared to ours! Proove it! and your for your sake you had better be wrong.........as goes the US so goes Canada! Do you doubt it my frozen friend???
You are indeed a fool if you the the rest of the world is peacefull! God, give me a break! I am so sorry if you cant see the truth......but the Eagle will always let the small bird sing.......lucky for you. Edit Yes we are a minority........yet we have the worlds largest economy by far..........a point you must hate! You and the rest of the world must get over it...........it is not bragging if you can back it up! Are you such a big fan of Europe that you would see them harm the US economy.........the economy that you as a Canadian rely on to survive??? Hate is amazing sometimes. Last edited by Bodyguard on Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:14 am Post subject: | |||||||
So we'll suffer for a bit. It'll be worth it.
If you cannot read between the lines of peoples' posts, then you are the fool.
Once again, it is you who cannot see the truth. The eagle is an endangered species. Lucky for me. Some day you'll wish you'd been a pigeon instead. 
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:19 am Post subject: | |||
Give me a break........you have made other dumb statements before you have had to retract.....remember the one that stated that the US had the most opressive government??????? The more you talk the more your hate and disdain for us shows. Maybye the decaying land of France would be the place for you. A county where the best days are far behind and memories of glory are all that is left...........of course the same could be said for all of the EU. |
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:23 am Post subject: | |
| Oh and I thought the "eagle" quote would have caught the eye of such a "history" student as yourself..........it was from Churchill refering to the small states of Europe that were captured by Communism..........you remember Communism dont you? The thing that was finally defeated by Ronald Reagan???? Ohhhh I forgot you are one of those who thinks the USSR fell by a big co-inky-dink................. | |
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:25 am Post subject: | |||
What are you going to do wait for the next ice age so you can walk to Europe?????? |
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:33 am Post subject: | |
| Keep it on topic kids. | |
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:35 am Post subject: | |||||||
Actually, I have no hate. But your hate explains to me the attitude of the hundreds of my worldwide online and offline friends towards your country.
Reagan played a part in the collapse of the Soviet Union. He was not solely responsible for either its collapse or most certainly that of communism.
Actually, I'm quite content with today's superb airline services when I shuttle between my two homes. Thanks for asking though. :) edit: posted after you sleK, will do.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:39 am Post subject: | |||
okey dokey |
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