| Who should be the Democratic candidate for President | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Total Votes : 16 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Administrator
Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 1010
Location: over yonder
| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 1:34 am Post subject: | |||||||||||||||||
Fair enough, but I never suggested that you did dismiss the proposal. I suggested, and rightly so, that you have dismissed the merit of Kerry's candidacy based upon his association with groups that approved of the proposal without taking the merits of the proposal, or the movement itself, into consideration.
We're talking about Kerry here and to my knowledge he is not a member of, nor has he ever been a member of a communist government. Your point, so far, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that Kerry is a no good commie-pinko because he protested a war, that the entire county feels was a mistake now, with groups that may, or may not have, some tenuous at best affiliation with OMG!! scAry!! communists. Red-baiting at its finest. No?
That's not true. The author willfully twisted the words "sets a date for total withdrawal" into "withdraw all U.S. troops from Vietnam first and then negotiate" to make his point. The authors interpretation of the provision is clearly false and clearly biased thus not worth the attention we've given it.
Oh c'mon now! :roll: Yeah, and I only slam GWB cuz' I'm in mad dirty manlove with him. /sarcasm
The "means" that you're talking about are, as above, tenuous at best. As you've demonstrated, you are hard-pressed to find any substantial link between Kerry and communism.
That maybe so, but you have no credible links between Kerry, the groups he was associated with during the protests, and communists. Thus it is disigenuous of you to dismiss his merit upon such grounds.
No. You have pointed out that Kerry was involved in peaceful protests of the Vietnam war. You have not provided any credible information that connects Kerry to any organization that threatens your security.
First, I invite you to point out where I stated that was no communist "infiltration". Second, even if there was, it has little bearing upon the merit of Kerrys candidacy unless you can provide a direct link between Kerry and the communists and/or demonstrate that ending the war was a Bad Idea™ that has now resulted in a current, and feasible, threat to your national security. edit: and cut with the "link-bot" routine. Use the links to support individual opinions and statements within the context of the discussion. |
|||||||||||||||||
Administrator
Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 1010
Location: over yonder
| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 1:39 am Post subject: | |||
Now that's ghey! It seems a pretty clear-cut issue for either to make stand on. American politicians have no knards. |
|||
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 1337
Location: The Collective
| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:07 am Post subject: | |||
My point about Kerry, again, is that he did indeed associate with radical members of anti war organizations. That is a fact. Do I think he is a communist? No. Do I think he would become one if would gain him some votes? Sure thing 
"Entire country" you need to back off that statement. It is false. It is not red-baiting to reveal the truth. If he does not care then more power to him for standing up for his actions. The Left gets their panties in a wad whenever somebody from the Right has the balls to point out a few facts. I wanted to reveal Kerrys association with radical groups and that his work on behalf of them just might have harmed his country. By that I mean the false accusations about the troops and by supporting the above peace proposal witch might and I say might have caused the North not to return our prisoners if it would have been adopted. It was rejected by the US just for the reasons I talked about. That is a value judgement on his part and I find it revolting to the max. Now of course that did not happen but is it not relevent to show how he feels or felt about the US at that time. And is it unfair to say the truth about what he said and did? Is telling the truth a bait of some kind? No credible links? He was a MEMBER of the VVAW. That does not link him? OK whatever you say 
The VVAW was considered dangerous by many to the security of the US at the time BECAUSE of its communist views by some of its members. You may not consider communism a threat or even an enemy but I and many other Americans do and did at the time. Can I please have a simple answer to my question? Will you admitt there was indeed communist infiltration in some of the anti war movement?
So is it bullshit or not? |
|||
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 916
Location: roaming...
| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:36 am Post subject: | |
Here's a link in support of my friend. ^ 
|
|
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 1337
Location: The Collective
| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:45 am Post subject: | |
|
Hey K! Long time no see!
|
|
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 1337
Location: The Collective
| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 5:02 am Post subject: | |
| More evidence on Kerrys record.....http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4361469/ | |
Administrator
Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 1010
Location: over yonder
| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 5:35 am Post subject: | |||||||||||||||||||||||
And that's an entirely fair and accurate observation. Although "radical", and its connotations, may be pushing it a little. ;)
No. I just need to remember to include the term "generally" or phrase "generally speaking" when I say it.
It is indeed "reb-baiting" when the truth is not presented in congruence with the revelations. It's one thing to associate a man with communists. It's quite another to have the means to demonstrate it unequivocally.
"Just might"? Had you stopped at "association with radical groups" I'd have nothing to question 'cept your use of "radical". :D However, speculation based solely upon specious information is by no means sufficient in determining the merits of anything... let alone your nations future.
This is a wholly unsupported assertion that has been addressed previously.
It certainly is relevant, but you'd be obligated to do so without the use of fallacy to establish an angle. Once again, it's one thing to associate a man with communists. It's quite another to have the means to demonstrate it unequivocally.
Of course not. However, specious information and fallacy don't make for a very accurate "truth".
It links him to an anti-war movement, certainly. Links him with communists? I'm not so sure, and I have seen nothing to suggest that that is indeed the case. Nor have you provided any credible information to support such an allegation.
I don't doubt any of that. However, you've now moved from "infiltrated by communists" all the way over to simply "communist views". As you have your dislike for "flip-flopping", I have my dislike for "moving the goal-posts".
No. I would be foolish to deny the possibility, however, I've seen no credible evidence to suggest that any "communist infiltration" or "communist views", if you will  , played any detrimental part in Kerrys post-service actions of the Vietnam war. Which, if I'm not mistaken, is the entire premise of your quest to discredit him.
Is what bullshit? edit: doubled up a quote. 
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 1337
Location: The Collective
| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:16 am Post subject: | |||
|
If all I meant to do is show that he indeed had associations with communists (wich you scoffed at at first) how is that red-baiting? And if one is not ashamed or trying to hide such association what does it matter?
"False accusations"? I have linked an article supporting my position on war crimes. If you dont believe it, it is now your turn to show I am incorrect. "Radical" I consider radical to mean the will or opinion to overthrow the current government of the US. What is your definition of this word? If a mans record does not demonstrate his convictions what does? His record of votes and statements are indeed the truth. Well you will have to jump to the logical conclusion that since the VVAW had many communist members (you must admitt that) and that Kerry was in the VVAW he must have at least some contact with the communists correct??? Is it really so hard for you to see that the anti war movement was "infiltrated" with communists? Do you really think that American Communists lived in a vacum that had no contact with the Soviets or North Vietnam or East Germany or Red China? Dont you think that is a bit simplistic? You said you had not stated that there was communist infiltration of the anti war movement....remember? I then quoted your statement seeming to discount that fact. You stated it was a "bullshit" statement. Do you think my statement that communists and their agents were involved in the anti war movement was bullshit?
If you can admitt the above, then it cant be bullshit. I define "bullshit" as a complete fabrication. edit spelling in a Bombay induced haze |
|||
Administrator
Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 1010
Location: over yonder
| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 7:00 am Post subject: | |||||||||||||||||||||||
If that was your intent then it probably would have sounded something like "this link documents Kerrys associations with communists" instead of the clearly red-baited "pawn of the Cong". Either way, I still scoff at it. Having communists involved or not does not diminish the merit of the protest nor Kerrys candidacy. Unless, of course, you can demonstrate that the "communist views" or "infiltration" or whathaveyou had a detrimental impact to either the Vietnam war and/or your nations current national security.
You should ask yourself that. You brought it up.
What article? Am I supposed to guess what article is for what point? Perhaps you should use these articles to support your claims as you make them. It makes for better discussion.
LOL!! Clearly not the same as yours. As such, I'm glad I chose to question yours. If you want to know my definition you should consult a dictionary. Its meaning is put forth quite clearly there.
Record of what?
Sure.
Sure, but once again, as before, for the bazillionth time, unless you can demonstrate that the "communist views" or "infiltration" or whathaveyou had a detrimental impact to either the Vietnam war and/or your nations current national security, those associations don't mean squat. You're simply red-baiting again.
See above.
I think...
... is bullshit insofar as your intent was to imply that Kerry conspired with Vietnamese government agents to "overthrow the current government" (your definition, not mine) during protests of the Vietnam war. Which is positively dripping with bullshit.
Well, you're free to define bullshit anyway you like BG... much like you have with "radical". However, as with "radical", don't expect your definitions to be everybody elses. edit: Ooh! Bombay? Bombay Sapphire? That stuff r00lz me! |
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 56
Location: southeast
| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 9:32 pm Post subject: | |||
Very complete and telling link. Just remember...... those who support this kind of jerk, think like him, too. Hey if that hurt anyones feeling, put yourself in for a purple heart like KERRY did. God, what a weasel! Time will wear down Mr. Kerry and his Dixie Chicks defense. It took a while to get the truth out about Max Cleland, but it's out there now. Thanks again for that great link. PS. Remember our bet about the stock price by last Aug ? |
|||
Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Posts: 762
| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 2:02 am Post subject: | |
|
Kerry on Iraq
More proof of John Kerry waffling on the issue of defense. Cannot imagine this man as president of the United States. |
|
Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Posts: 762
| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 4:24 am Post subject: | |||
Winter Soldier Does John Kerry have any credibility when it comes to his recollection of the Vietnam War and protesting it after returning home? Read this article and judge for yourself. |
|||
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 1337
Location: The Collective
| Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 5:26 am Post subject: | |
| Wow CCC a great article....I had to step away from this thread for a few days....funny it has not been comented on since you posted it. | |
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 1337
Location: The Collective
| Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 5:31 am Post subject: | |||
CCC's article link above should suffice for the above point regarding war crimes. |
|||
Administrator
Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 1010
Location: over yonder
| Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 5:47 am Post subject: | |
| And what was your point regarding the war crimes again? | |
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 1337
Location: The Collective
| Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 6:05 am Post subject: | |
| The point was that the acusations made by Kerry and others were never proven to be as widspread as they claimed. And that such claims made by Kerry were only for political gain and fame. | |
Administrator
Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 1010
Location: over yonder
| Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 6:23 am Post subject: | |||||
Can't argue with that... beats the hell out of "pawn of the cong" whilst not diminishing the actuality of atrocities committed by US soldiers.
What did Kerry do immediately after the war? *** Oh! Think you could guess what I'm drinking?
. . G&T with a twist! Sapphire, of course... what can I say? I was inspired!
|
|||||
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 1337
Location: The Collective
| Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 6:42 am Post subject: | |
| Insperation can come from the strangest places! LOL Goodnight for now. | |
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 1337
Location: The Collective
| Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 6:43 pm Post subject: | |||
|
Here is a powerfull article written by the daughter of a KIA in Vietnam.
http://opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110004738 Here is a exerpt....
|
|||
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 2205
Location: A little bit sideways!
| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 6:16 am Post subject: | |
|
I have to make sure I get up really early so I can make sure I vote for "A friend of ours" John Kerry before work.
Yup, us in MA. are just nuts! ~GoodFella |
|
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 1337
Location: The Collective
| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:00 am Post subject: | |
| Be sure and vote for Kerry....the most liberal Senator ever! Dont forget that he was Dukakis's Lt Governor! What a success he was! Heard from Willy Horten lately?? | |
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 1964
| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:26 am Post subject: | |||
Yep. Welcome to the wacky world of Democraps!! |
|||
Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Posts: 1037
Location: Formerly 3333
| Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 3:26 pm Post subject: | |
|
I'm not sure it really matters who the Democratic nominee is. There isn't a one of them who can hold a candle to our President. The Demos I've listened to are out of touch with hard-working Americans.
John Kerry says he will "role back the Bush tax cuts". Let's see, the last two Presidential hopefuls who either threatened new taxes or broke their "no tax" promises both lost. (McGovern and Bush #1). Vote Bush in 2004! "Footie" |
|
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 1337
Location: The Collective
| Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 4:23 am Post subject: | |||
|
An article from a British newspaper on Kerry and his wartime service
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/03/07/wkerr07.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/03/07/ixnewstop.html A sample of the article....
|
|||
Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Posts: 1037
Location: Formerly 3333
| Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 3:24 pm Post subject: | |||
GF... I have to agree with your assessment of your fellow Massachusians (is that a word?). I mean, after all, you continue to re-elect Ted Kennedy over and over again. A couple more election wins for Teddy and he'll receive the coveted Strom Thurmond "endurance" award. Damn Bodygard.... Massachusetts IS a liberal State. Ted Kennedy, Michael Dukakis, AND John Kerry!!! You'd be hard pressed to find such a liberal threesome anywhere else in the Country. I say, let's make sure none of them progress further than "serving" Massachusetts. The Country can't afford the likes of them. VOTE BUSH IN NOVEMBER! "Footie" |
|||