New SM Just reamed me for going to Church

Joined: 16 Jun 2008 Posts: 10

I recently became a team leader in Millwork. I've been with the company for over three years so far and it's pretty much been my "college job." I've been going to church for over a year, every Sunday and it hasn't been an issue. Until today. By the way, I'm not a muslim. I go to a non-denominational Christian church. The reason I say this is because there was a Muslim guy at my old store who had time off several times a day to go somewhere and pray. Sometimes three times during a midshift.

In January, a few of the ASM's and our store manager tried to get me to become Team leader. I told them that I cannot because I'm in school and don't have the availability. They asked when I'm done with school. I said I'm done in December, because I have just one more class to take in the fall. They asked if I'll be willing to work 40 hours and take that one class. I definitely agreed because that's easy. We agreed that I will start as team leader of Millwork on the first week of May, as that being the first week that I had off of the spring semester.

In the room at that time was our HR manager, my department manager, my zone manager, the sales manager and the store manager. I clearly stated to all of them, that my only request is that I do not work any earlier than 2PM on Sundays for Church. They all agreed. Since I started as Team lead 6 weeks ago, I've hit 39-40 hours every single week, despite only working 5-6 hours on Sunday. I just made it up on a few other days.

Up until today everything was good. Two weeks ago we got a new store manager. Cool guy actually, really nice. Definitely motivated, but he's been curteous and respectful this entire time.

I stroll in at 2:30pm. My schedule and availability states 3-8 PM availability for Sundays. Store closes at 7. Immediately I get paged by the SM, I call him back and he says to come into his office. I walk in there and he's sitting there with the Sales manager (woman) and my department manager (man). The Sales Manager looks like she had just got done crying. (Some backstory, this Store Manager has been brought into our store to "clean up the place" according to most, therefore seeing a female ASM cry hasn't really been surprising lately.).

This was the entire Exchange

STORE MANAGER - Hey John, what's your job title here.

Me - Team Leader...in Millwork

SM - This is the Lowes PandP, and in it, it states that all Team Leaders are required to work a corporate rotation.

Me - *nodded*

SM - Then Why are you clocking in at 2:42 PM on a Sunday?

ME - Because I was in Church. It's in my availability. I've been going to church every sunday morning since I came to this store, and for about 6 months before that at my old store.

SM - Are you active in your church?

ME - I'm a member and i go every sunday and sometimes on Wednesdays if I'm off.

SM - That's great, I coach the basketball team at my church down the road here.

Me - Cool. I'm trying to get in our church band actually.

SM - Oh yeah, you mentioned you're a drummer before. That's cool man. But yeah, according to the corporate rotation, you'll still get two sunday's off per month. One full weekend and then an additional Sunday. It's Lowe's way of "meeting you halfway" when it comes to religious issues of our associates.

Me - But I've been doing this since March of 2007 without any problems. It was something that we and (Old Store Manager) had agreed upon and figu--

SM - Well (Old store manager) is not here anymore. I'm here. If you want to transfer over to his store I'm sure he'll honor that agreement. (At this point his tone was more stern.)

Me - So...like...If I knew this was going to be such a big deal later on, I would have never become a---

SM - (now he's raised his voice) Why are we here? Out of everyone in this room, who's the only one not following his or her corporate rotation?

Me - Me, sir.

SM - So, are you going to talk over me while I'm talking?

Me - No, Sir

SM - I have a job to do, my job is to follow the PandP of this company and that is what I'm going to do. I had to deal with a corporate complaint this afternoon from a lady who needed help in Millwork. The team leader wasn't there, if you were 11-8 today, she would have had help. We're Done here. (still yelled all that, there reason we had no opener is because there's only two guys in Millwork now. Me and one specialist who had the weekend off).

After that the door opened, me and my Department manager walked out, He went towards the return desk. I walked all the way to the back out to the bullpen, walked behind the big ass transformer, punched the stone building, sat down and just started crying.

I do understand that there are many people higher up on the corporate ladder that are breathing down the neck of my SM, so in that sense I'm not mad he defended the corporate rotation. I think it was the way he did it. I felt like a child. I am one of the younger ones. I'm 23. But I also have an IQ of 157 and about to graduate college. I may be young, but I'm not a kid nor am I stupid. He didn't need to belittle me.

This is what people I've talked to so far think I should do.
-Find another job and quit
-Talk to HR sometime this week and tell her how the SM made me feel, along with why this wasn't an issue for the 6 weeks prior that I was a team leader.
-Go back to being a CSA and have your availability off for early Sunday.

I'm actually thinking about the third option. The guy who told me the second option definitely pushed me to talk to HR about what happened today. Just to at least see if what he did was cool. I'm pretty sure he didn't break any rules even though he acted like a dick. I'm still a little upset/angry over it but am going to think about it more tomorrow after a good nights rest.

I trolled this forum for two years before starting an account and posting today. I didn't want to talk to many co-workers because it kind of is a private issue between me and management, so I figure I'd turn it over to you guys. Sorry for the length, just needed to really vent.

Joined: 05 Feb 2008 Posts: 51

1st off, hr is only there to protect Lowe's, they really don't care about(for the most part) the employee. they are considered management. before stepping down consider the consequences, fewer hours than requested and a cut in pay. the first, they can lower you to as little as 4 hours a week as a part time employee. the second, however, they can only lower your pay by x %. but also consider that if you drop to only full time, they can still require an open availability from you to screw you over as well.

seems like you may need to get back with your old st mgr, if the drive is worth it since he is sympathetic to your situation. the reason I say this is because I've been through this with a former employer who was in the clean up mode for the store I worked at. they will do whatever it takes, right or wrong, to get ride of good people who do a good job, especially if your not moving up in the company.

Joined: 01 Feb 2008 Posts: 262

Do you have a copy of your availability sheet that was signed? Get one if you don't. Let them know that they haven't come to you to modify that so you had no idea that suddenly your religious affiliation had become an issue. Let them know that you want to respect their p and p. Let them also know that since this had never been a problem in the past you had no idea that it was suddenly not acceptable.

Look deep inside yourself and ask if attending church only twice per month would work for you. Ask yourself if you can live with that option or if you'd rather step down to csa to attend weekly. If you can live with only going twice a month to fellowship with your church then remain a tl if not step down.

I would talk to the HR person just because they had been in the meeting setting the agreement in the first place. Since your availability states that you are not available until after 3pm on Sundays then you may have a valid case to show the SM. Have the HRM talk to the SM about this issue though. They are not all out to get people either. Have faith that everything will work out for the best.

Joined: 04 Feb 2008 Posts: 56

I have talked with many long time employees of Lowes. They say that Lowes is not as it used to be. It changed sometime ago with a new CEO. Your former SM was probably "old school". The new SM is the new breed of corporates. They only care about a few things: profits, their bonus, and their power trips. They "strain at the gnat as the camel passes by". The store that I am in is evident of that. This new breed will bend over for Muslims and those like them, but as for a "church goer", you are not a minority (in a religious sense) and do not have kin who possess oil. Since you are in a prior binding argeement with a SM ( who represents Lowes), that agreement is binding with Lowes, not a given SM. It will probably require losing your job and going to court to prove this, but that is the price for standing up. And Lowes knows this. That is why they push the "peon". Some on this board may not agree with these statements, but I speak from experience. Remember. look up to the Lord and not look down to the feet of men".

Joined: 16 Jun 2008 Posts: 10

Thanks for all the responses guys, and thank you Night Stalker for sharing that last sentence, I had never heard that before. I felt at ease after reading it.

Here's what happened in the past two days. Yesterday (monday) I was off, but when I woke up I just had this crappy feeling about having to go to work the next day. It took six months for me to talk to different managers, and our HR to try and find a way for me to fulfill 110% of my duties as well as going to church. Having all of that thrown out in a matter of moments really just made me feel like I wasted a lot of effort. So I did the first thing that came to mind. I drove to work, walked in, went to my desk in Millwork and wrote out the following email to all the ASM's and to HR.

Subject: I want to be a CSA again.
Hey Folks,
I want to discontinue my tenure as team leader of millwork as soon as possible and go back to the position of CSA in Millwork. I'm not happy as team leader anymore. I am grateful that I was many of you guys' first choice for the position, but frankly I will refuse to allow my religious practices to take a back seat to a rotation based schedule. I want to thank all of you who helped me get to Team Leader. If I had known that having the Sunday morning limitation on my availability would create such a firestorm, I would have never even put in for the Team Lead position in the first place. On Sunday I felt as though (Store Manager) strong-armed me into either missing a lot of church or ceasing to be team leader. I don't blame him because he's just defending the same P and P that I also do respect.

I will continue to do the same thing I did before and during my time as Team lead in Millwork, and I'll also be glad to help train the future team leader, if it's necessary.

Thanks,
John ---------

Didn't send it to the store manager because quite frankly I didn't see the need. I know some of you may think that I gave up, but the paycut isn't really going to hurt me too much. I'm blessed that 1. I don't have too much debts other than rent/cell phone and car. And 2. I also sell alot of drum stuff on Ebay. It's pretty much like running an ebay store except I auction every item straight off my username. On the good months I make more money than I do at Lowe's. It's more of a hobby and I pull the money into my bank account on the weeks I don't get a paycheck.

Skip to today (Tuesday).
I was scheduled to work 7am-4pm. Got there just before 7 and was soon told by some random cashier that my job position had been posted. I actually felt relieved. I'm not surprised that random associates knew the predicament because on Sunday, the store manager made it clear (according to coworker-friends) that he was "on the warpath" because I wasn't in the department. Apparently there were some angry pages and the store manager was at customer service talking to the Sales Manager about me loudly and in a very negative manner. In fact, during the 20 minute drive to work, my phone was still on silent and I had received four missed calls and three voicemails, each from a different co-worker telling me to hurry my butt in there because the store manager was mad. I think that's why the whole thing on Sunday hurt so much. It was rather public. even though I got yelled at in some back office with the door closed, everyone around Millwork knew about it and the way they avoided eye contact with me kind of made me feel like crap. This was the main point the flooring team lead made to me about fighting back to H.R. He was public and absolutely not discreet about it.

What do you folks think about how the SM handled it? kosher or do you think he can get in trouble for it? I apologize for not mentioning it in the first post, I was pretty upset at the time of typing it.

As soon as the smoke clears a bit I'll put in another availability sheet with my church time covered. I know the next week or two I may have to miss a service, or go on Wednesday if I'm lucky, but It's okay as long as afterwards I indefinitely remain unavailable on sunday mornings. Also an interesting side note: there was a managers meeting today and while I was doing a window quote at my desk, the store manager walked by, said hello casually to the specialist and then came over, shook my hand and said hey to me. He also mentioned that it was good to see me. I'm starting to think this guy is Bipolar but If my position is posted, I know for sure that he knows. And apparently doesn't think it's a bad move. I'm pretty sure he read the email.

I think the best thing about today was how about a half dozen employees, some of whom I don't talk to ever, came to my desk and said encouraging stuff. Some said that they wish they could do that for the same reasons I am, but can't due to family and bills. Some were glad I "stuck it to them." I guess it's the closest someone can say "take this job and shove it" without actually getting fired. It made me feel good and I'm glad I did it. I don't regret it at all. My department manager guaranteed me 30 hours a week, and up to 40 if I'm needed. I help out in Lumber ALOT since most of them can't drive a forklift so I know getting hours won't be a huge problem.

Thanks for the encouraging words and advice folks.
-John.

Joined: 27 Jan 2008 Posts: 10

John -

I'm not doubting your dept manager but, I want to know how he can guarantee you any amount of hours per week? Is it because there's no one else in the dept (you mentioned you were shorthanded)?
I'm not trying to be a smart ass here but, I'm a dept manger as well and I can't guarantee any one of my associates any amount of hours past the minimum unless they are slotted as full-time. My PT's are at the whim of sales vs budget and all the rest.
If there's a way I can do this too, i need to know how.

Joined: 01 Feb 2008 Posts: 262

I don't understand why the SM would have had an opportunity to yell at you in the first place. According to your post you were not scheduled for 11-8. Did the store not put someone else in that area to cover that time off? The SM should have made certain that the department was covered if you were not scheduled. He was just upset that there wasn't any coverage and he's the new guy so didn't know about it in advance. The ZM should have known. The schedule is posted in advance so not sure why he was so pissed off that day.

He also didn't yell at you for attending church but for having limited availability.

Joined: 16 Jun 2008 Posts: 10

Joined: 19 Oct 2003 Posts: 2625

Hi John, I had to jump in and remark on the post you made about the missed calls on your cell phone on the way in to work on Sunday. Seams pathetic that the storm manager or zone managers can't handle it when a crises comes up....Maybe.....Just maybe the manager is the one who can't cut it. And why is there only one specialist? Why doesn't Lowes do as they are well known for and hire a local ice cream shop dipper to be the new specialist? So the "specialist" can order the wrong size windows and doors and mess up transactions to piss off more customers while Lowes looses money from the screwed up transactions and customers that won't return. Oh but they saved soooooooo much because they got the person for $8.00 an hour.

Joined: 08 Feb 2008 Posts: 21

I have had some pretty lousy managent in the past 10 years. But, my availability sheet has always been honored. I don't come in on Sunday till 1pm which has had me working an extra hour one day during the week to get in my 39 hours. Of course, when I don't get off until 11pm on Saturday night, it is really hard to be in Church on Sunday morning. Many Wednesday evenings are missed as well from scheduling. On their [managment's] behalf, when you have over a hundred employees, and very different walks of life in the store, it is hard to satisfy everyone. Now, that brings up another question. I wonder if it had been of a faith outside Christianity, what the outcome would have been? Should Lowe's allow the bringing in of rugs for prayer so many times a day? Just questions of food for thought.

Joined: 16 Jun 2008 Posts: 10

Joined: 19 Oct 2003 Posts: 2625

I just had one of my best weeks ever as an Lowes associate.! Thumbs Up

I was on vacation Very Happy

Joined: 22 Dec 2007 Posts: 136

Why not just go up to the district manager? One SM can't tell another SM what to do.

Here's a few ideas

1) tell him that it's religious discrimination seeing that under any religion there's holy days and there's various state laws that forbid an employer from continuing workon them (mass and nh technically)

2) tell him he'll get sued personally and that you can contact the ACLU

3) who makes out the schedual anyway? the "corporate schedual" is actually illegal in much of the country. At my old store if we were to take it seriously then some would come in for one hour and then 9 hours the next day or close and then open etc.

I had a old sm that would constantly change the schedual. It clearly states in policy that the sm cannot change the schedual. so if you have that in writing then HE is wrong per company policy.

SM's are just middle management. Heck the company doesn't even run itself it's really capital management since they own far more than nilblock could ever afford.

Joined: 25 Jun 2008 Posts: 26 Location: n/a

I really empathize with your situation, sadly, it is another example of PC policies applied at management discretion. MUMs (Mop-UP Managers) are a means to an end whether that encompasses rational decison making or not is irrelevant in most situations. They want to show their DM's staff movement to justify their paychecks. I'm not saying the SM doesn't have a heart, but accomodating your sched established or not is not a priority. Also a turnaround manager is about ending favarable relationships established by the previous manager as it is seen as a part of the problem. Your agreement with the previous manager probably didnt help at all. My heart goes out

Joined: 22 Aug 2008 Posts: 9

Sorry about what happened to you. I am so fortunate i dont have to put up with this kind of BS anymore and my company encourages us to go to church on sundays on our DAY OFF! We do not work Sundays PERIOD!

When did corporate America forget about morals?

Looks like lowes is only trying to make a buck.

The customer in this situation should respect that noone was there due to church functions.

NO RESPECT FROM THE MANAGEMENT OR THE CUSTOMERS! NO WONDER ITS CALLED RETAIL!

HE JACK ASS STORE MANAGER AT THIS STORE! DID U EVER STOP TO THINK THAT YO HAVE OTHER ASM'S IN THIS AREA TO COVER WHEN SOMEONE ISNT THERE! YOU SHOULD RIP THEM A NEW A-HOLE FOR NOT LISTENING TO CALL BUTTONS! OH WAIT YOU PREFER TO PICK ON THE LITTLE GUY WHILE HE HAS A LEGIT REASON THAT WAS SIGNED OFF BY A PREVIOUS SM! NOW YOU COME IN BEING A D-I-C-K AND TRYING TO THROW YOUR WEIGHT AROUND!

IF I WAS THIS GUY U FAQ-ED OVER I WOULD CERTAINLY MAKE YOUR LIFE HELL AND I WOULD HAVE YOUR BALLS ON A GOLDEN PLATTER HANDEDBACKT O YOU AFTER I WALKED OUT WITH YOUR JOB IN MY HANDS!