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Nofsdad


Joined: 06 Jul 2003
Posts: 7090
Location: Central CA
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 7:36 pm    Post subject: I'll be dipped. The rich truly Do get richer, etc.  
Rich, poor income gap widens
Illinois' wealthiest families enjoy 50% jump; for others, 20%
That's "others" COMBINED. Check it out when you actually break it down.
Quote:
Illinois' richest families saw their incomes grow more than twice as fast as families at the bottom and middle of the economic ladder during the last two decades, according to a national study released Thursday.

Actually 2.5 times as fast but what's half again when you have more money than you can keep track of anyway?
Quote:
"The wealth and income is once again accruing to families at the very top," said Jared Bernstein, senior economist at the Washington, D.C.-based Economic Policy Institute, a liberal think tank.

The study was conducted by the institute and the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. Economists at conservative institutions don't dispute that inequality is growing, but they disagree about the causes and solutions.

I usually cut out the liberal/conservative references in these things in favor of raw data. I'm including it this time because the disagreement shows what we can expect from both sides as nothing gets done while they're bickering about it.
Quote:
"The important thing is, everybody is doing better," said Rea Hederman Jr., senior policy analyst at the conservative Heritage Foundation. "Even people at the bottom quintile are better off than they were at the start of the period."

That last sentence is pure bullsh*t. I'm asking each of you to look at your own situation not in terms of how many dollars your making but what has happened to REAL INCOME over the past few years. Are you truly "doing better"? (More on "real income" below.
Quote:
Compared with other states, Illinois ranked squarely in the middle--No. 25--in the disparity between its richest and poorest families. New York had the greatest inequality between rich and poor; Texas had the greatest gap between rich and middle-income, the study said.

Bearing in mind that Illinois ranked directly in the middle in the first category, disparity between the richest and the poorest:
Quote:
The richest 20 percent of families had average incomes 6.8 times as large as the poorest 20 percent in the early 2000s, up from 5.4 times in the early '80s.

Quote:
-The highest incomes in the early 2000s were 2.5 times as large as the middle 20 percent, up from 2 times 20 years earlier.

As you can see, what has been routine net loss for us bottom dwellers is now starting to bite the middle class also.
Quote:
- Average incomes for the richest 20 percent, adjusted for inflation, increased by 51 percent, to $123,231, or about $1,990 per year, during the period.

- Average incomes for the middle increased 21.5 percent, to $50,032, or about $420 per year.

- Average incomes for the poorest rose by 20.5 percent, to $18,032, or about $145 per year.

I'm not going to go dig up the figures for this post but I'd be willing to bet your cost of living has increased by more than $145 a year over the past two decades.
Quote:
Inequality wasn't always a hallmark of the U.S. economy, economists agree.

From the post-World War II period into the 1970s, average wages moved in lockstep with the country's economic growth, benefiting workers at all income levels equally, Bernstein said. But that changed starting in the 1980s, when the gap between rich and poor began to widen.

Quote:
A tight labor market during the high-tech stock boom pushed wages up even for the lowest-paid worker, and the bursting of the high-tech stock bubble hit the richest families harder, the study suggests. But incomes at the top have rebounded since the 2001 slump, while the recession's impact on low- and middle-income families persists, the report said.

This is why I have constantly, whenever someone has described our economy as growing or even "booming" I have always asked them, "For WHOM is the economy growing or booming?". So far, not a one of them has cared to answer.
Quote:
A recent study by the Congressional Budget Office reported that real income fell by more than 1 percent between 2002 and 2003 for the bottom 20 percent of workers, remained virtually flat for workers in the middle and rose 3.9 percent for the top quintile. It jumped 8 percent for the top 5 percent of families.

Remember the reference to real income above? In terms of what you can actually buy with the money you're bringing in today, you, on the national average, are worse off than you were 20 years ago. Of course that's an average. The employees in some industries, retail among them, fall far below the median.

That crap about everybody doing better so this must be a good thing is a typical response from those who benefit from the lopsided situation. I'm pretty damned sure that if they were in the bottom 20%, the segment that is losing ground to butter their bread for them, they'd be singing an entirely different tune.
Quote:
Some of the forces driving inequality are periods of relatively high unemployment, the shift to service from manufacturing jobs, the decline of unions and the decline in the value of the minimum wage, the report said. Among the remedies it suggests for state governments are increasing their minimum wage, strengthening supports for working families and making unemployment insurance more widely available.

I guess that would be considered the "liberal" view. What about the other side?
Quote:
The Heritage Foundation's Hederman said investments in education are a better solution. "The world places a higher premium on skills and education," he said.

Uh... we'll be better off when we have 60,000,000 MBAs with minimum wage no benefit jobs in the service sector? A Sears associate with a 4 year degree making $7 an hour is magically going to be better off than a high school dropout making $7 an hour?

Yeah, yeah, I know. Get yourself educated and move on up to the management positions and become big shots yourselves. So once we have all got our little MBAs or whatever in our hot little hands, the people at the top are suddenly going to start sharing the wealth with all 60 million of us? You mean there's room for all of us in that top 20% whose economy is growing 6.8 times faster than mine is? Not bloody flipping likely.

And if by some stretch of some science fiction writers wildest imagination all this did come to pass,who does the actual work then? Someone has always got to be there to GROW the groceries and SELL the goods and TRANSPORT the goods and SERVICE the goods. You know, be the work force for our new service based economy. Damn, meaningless platitudes piss me off!!!
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Lizzie-boredom


Joined: 08 Jan 2006
Posts: 197
Location: ~G.W.N~
Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:24 am    Post subject:  
Nofs,

Have you ever considered writing a book?

Lizzie Smile
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Nofsdad


Joined: 06 Jul 2003
Posts: 7090
Location: Central CA
Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:36 am    Post subject:  
I get too mad just thinking about this stuff to write a book. Besides, who would want to read some old curmudgeons's rantings anyway?

No, I'm content to come to an internet forum and blow off steam now and again. This used to be a pretty good place for that.
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Lizzie-boredom


Joined: 08 Jan 2006
Posts: 197
Location: ~G.W.N~
Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 6:16 am    Post subject:  
Very Happy it still is Very Happy
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Nofsdad


Joined: 06 Jul 2003
Posts: 7090
Location: Central CA
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:31 am    Post subject:  
And then there's Texas:

Quote:
From 2001 to 2003, the average annual income of the top 20 percent of Texas families — $118,971 — was nearly three times the average income of the middle 20 percent, which made $41,015, the study shows.

The average income of Texas' richest fifth of families was more than eight times greater than the $14,724 average of the poorest fifth.

Nationwide:
Quote:
In the past two decades, average incomes nationally of those in the bottom two-fifths of families grew just under 11 percent, the study shows.

Quote:
The top fifth saw their incomes rise more than four times that much.

Quote:
And, those in the top 5 percent of all incomes nationally saw their incomes skyrocket by 65.6 percent.

Again, that's 11% for me and the lower middle, 44% for the mid and upper middle and 65% for the top 20% of the population. Gee, I wonder how they manage that. NO middle class squeeze eh? No class warfare, eh?
Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green
Quote:
McNichol said such uneven income growth violates the fundamental priniciple that hard work will be rewarded with a rising standard of living.

And yet, what's the first thing out of the corporate defender's mouth every time this subject comes up????
Quote:
"When income growth is concentrated at the top of the income scale, the people at the bottom have a much harder time lifting themselves up out of poverty and giving their children a decent start in life," she said.

And since when does any mutt who's getting far more than he ever puts back give a damn about the people at the bottom who are living on the crumbs? He's far more likely to be trying to snatch up the crumbs too.

Be greedy if that's what blows your dress up, just don't be hypocritical about it.
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Lizzie-boredom


Joined: 08 Jan 2006
Posts: 197
Location: ~G.W.N~
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:44 am    Post subject:  
Again, that's 11% for me and the lower middle, 44% for the mid and upper middle and 65% for the top 20% of the population. Gee, I wonder how they manage that. NO middle class squeeze eh? No class warfare, eh?

Hey Nofs,

You sound Canadian when you talk (write) eh?

I don't recall a time when the rich guy cared about the lower income class. Not in my lifetime anyway. The rich get the tax breaks and can afford the write offs. The middle/lower class don't have the money to get the breaks. It just isn't right is it?
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centralnj1


Joined: 06 Jul 2003
Posts: 232
Location: Greenville, North Carolina
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:00 am    Post subject:  
Nofs~ You aren't for everyone being in the top 20%? What's wrong with you? eh?
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Nofsdad


Joined: 06 Jul 2003
Posts: 7090
Location: Central CA
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:55 am    Post subject:  
Like I said, if we all manage to squeeze into the top 20% who's going to do the work that we'll all be making our money from?

In a system where those that produce the least (or nothing at all) make the most from the work being done by someone else, there is always going to have to be that bottom 20%.

Lizzie, My father inlaw is from the extreme northern part of Minnesota and he uses the "eh" also. Mr. Green
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